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Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

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Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by amuatama on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:40 am

To be clear you believe Evolution didn't happen ?
if so then this video is for you


oh yea and MU is supposed to be Megaupload

What do of think of the Megaupload takedown ?

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Elloa on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:57 am

I'm sorry Amu, but I think Roseh will not be the best partener for your favourite debats. You will have to find someone else, I'm affraid. I don't think she cares so much :p


Concerning religion and philosophy, it's a subject that really interest me. I'm not christian and I've no religion (I don't want to have one), but i'm not atheist at all either, and I'm really interested by all religions. I find extremely interesting to find the secret meaning of the ancient and sacred text from every cultures and to see what fit together and what fit even with science. I've the feeling that when you compile everything, you are one step closer to something that could look like a part of truth. (I don't think that us, humans, can approach truth with our reasoning only)

I've many debat at home, cause Fredrik (my boyfriend) do not share at all my view about the subject. Very Happy


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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:14 am

Haha Well I'm going to be honest I believe and probably will always believe that God is the one who created everything (even if it's crazy to think so) but I still find it interesting to read about other religions. Maybe someday I will find the actual truth ^^
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Elloa on Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:03 am

RosehPerson wrote:Haha Well I'm going to be honest I believe and probably will always believe that God is the one who created everything (even if it's crazy to think so) but I still find it interesting to read about other religions. Maybe someday I will find the actual truth ^^

I'l share what i believe (but of course I'm not trying to convince you). I believe that ancient texts are written in the way of Legends or Tales. they use symbols, and metaphore. Problem is also that we only have translations, probably bad ones (the real message has lost its original meaning, a bit like the system of arabian phone), and in the case of the Bible, it's well known, and historic that the original text had been cut off to please some political needs and this at several moment of History. So the Bible that's lefts is (in my eyes) amputed from its deepest mysteries and probably more interesting texts. I've heard or read somewhere (can't find teh source was too long ago) that everything concerning Angels had been cut (this, so the Church of that time would be assured that humans would need the priests and wouldn't be able to contact God and his messenger by themselves). I know also that a lot of meditation exercises and practice teach by the Christ had been removed for same reasons. We can also expect text showing too much that woman is equal than man must have been cut off at some point too.
It would be such a wonderful discovery to find one original text of the Bible! The would be one of the most important arheological discovery!

Anyway...long story short. What I meant is that I believe that the text are written using symbolic. This to explain a very deep truth, hard to understand as our vocabulary is limited. Mysteries of Divinity and of Universe are extremly simple, but so deep that's hard for human mind to comprehend. So the text share their wisdom trough images, symbols and "tales". I don't think those "tales" should be taken literally. They mean something, they contain a message.
For example, the fact that God created the world in 7 days. It's not 7 literal days, but more 7 steps. And why 7 had been choosen : because it's a number that had a deeper meaning. It's a sacred number like 2 (that represent the Duality = the oppositions, Ying Yang...) or 3 (that represent trinity = Father-Son-Spirit, soul-mind-body, present-past-future, arma-kama-dharma etc...). You find 7 in mny aspect in different religion. First example is the 7 colors of the rainbow, the 7 chakras, etc...

My believes is that, it's dangerous to take the texts literally. First they had been corrupted by humans along History, second the message is "coded", hidden. The message is there, just not as obvious.



Hope I've not annoyed anyone with my super speech of the wednesday morning. Maybe I should become a New Ageist priest or something ? :p

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Luivatra on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:15 am

I for one believe in science, but because anything that science can explain with a proven theory (f.e. evolution) could theoretically be designed that way by some higher being/power it is never possible to 100% prove one of the two to be the truth.
Even if we encounter something science can not explain there is still two options, the systems or physics are too complex to comprehend for us or there is a greater being.

As it is not possible to fully prove either of them I am fine with people believing what they want as long as they don't try to force it onto other people and don't use it as a reason for violence (crusade, jihad etc...)

So in other words I think it is cool to see your stance RosehPerson, believe but respect other peoples believes (curse, but respect other peoples feelings)
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:55 pm

Elloa wrote:Anyway...long story short. What I meant is that I believe that the text are written using symbolic. This to explain a very deep truth, hard to understand as our vocabulary is limited. Mysteries of Divinity and of Universe are extremly simple, but so deep that's hard for human mind to comprehend. So the text share their wisdom trough images, symbols and "tales". I don't think those "tales" should be taken literally. They mean something, they contain a message.
For example, the fact that God created the world in 7 days. It's not 7 literal days, but more 7 steps. And why 7 had been choosen : because it's a number that had a deeper meaning. It's a sacred number like 2 (that represent the Duality = the oppositions, Ying Yang...) or 3 (that represent trinity = Father-Son-Spirit, soul-mind-body, present-past-future, arma-kama-dharma etc...). You find 7 in mny aspect in different religion. First example is the 7 colors of the rainbow, the 7 chakras, etc...

My believes is that, it's dangerous to take the texts literally. First they had been corrupted by humans along History, second the message is "coded", hidden. The message is there, just not as obvious.

Ohh I'd never thought of that before. That's really cool! And yes, the text has been edited so much its practically bare, but if you read the Bible, God said that none should be added or taken away. (Not trying to be all lectury here, just sayin') Maybe the priests and people saw that and decided to change it back? I'll have to look into that now because now I'm curious haha.

Also, Thanks Luivatra Smile
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by amuatama on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:12 pm

Which Bible do you use ?
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:04 pm

I use NIV.
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Majiinfreddy on Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:24 pm

I love how that video is condescending "the typical" creationist arguments.

Silly discussion is silly.

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Acharial on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:00 am

I'm myself very spiritual however not really christian at all. I grew up in a strict christian family (orthodox) but I never really got into my parents believes. I like following my own instincts and I was clearly more open minded than them and ended up in paganism. I've had my share of fights with my mother about my sexuality and not being christian but I couldn't care less, I would never let myself be brainwashed into what to believe, It's my life and my will after all.

During the 1600 century (1700 century in english IIRC) the bible had its most reworks. It was a time of endless war and domination against practically anything and religion was at its peak used to dominate and rule countries. This is practically the bible that we still have around. Some countries like Iran, iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabi is still enforcing the religious laws to rule the country fex. That was the case in europe too!

As Wendy mentioned also, It's a case of how you interpret it.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
A quote from the NIV, before it was homosexuals though it was translated to "masturbators" and later changed to homosexuals. NIV 2011 changed this IIRC to be more gender inclusive. though. lols? Is that the right belives? A christian can just change their believes to fit the trend? Because that is what Christianity is about right now.

Another interesting quote:

If you are gay, God loves you and you don't have to stop being a homosexual to go to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift, paid for by Jesus' precious blood (1st Peter 1:18-19).
This one is the contrary to the other translations. In the end, the most important is to believe in yourself and what you think is right. If you look closer to christianity and take your time reading about paganism you will realise how much Christianity has taken from us!


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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Majiinfreddy on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:35 pm

Acharial wrote:
A quote from the NIV, before it was homosexuals though it was translated to "masturbators" and later changed to homosexuals. NIV 2011 changed this IIRC to be more gender inclusive. though. lols? Is that the right belives? A christian can just change their believes to fit the trend? Because that is what Christianity is about right now.

Superb written.
Also THIS is a GOOD "argument \ point".

I believe the true will of God , or however you wanna put it - was lost a long time ago.
Still our society is built upon it. And there are still some good ..theories or whatever.

Myself being a Christian , I cba to disprove \ prove anything to anyone. I like believing - If you don't , fuck off and don't try to get me off my beliefs for choosing a different way to you, retard.

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Acharial wrote:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

It does say that (I looked it up in my Bible), but did you finish the passage? That is just as important as the verses. You cannot take a leaf off a tree and call it a tree. Read again:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Same passage: 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11

If you finish the passage, Paul tells Corinthians that the wicked weren't allowed into heaven before hand, but as soon as Jesus died for us, their sins were removed. And if you re-look at the other verse Archial gave, it connects now, doesn't it? It's just my interpretation. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Majiinfreddy wrote:Myself being a Christian , I cba to disprove \ prove anything to anyone. I like believing - If you don't , fuck off and don't try to get me off my beliefs for choosing a different way to you, retard.

I concur. But... In a nicer way to say Smile
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:48 pm

On another note: I think masturbation is necessary to stay pure until marriage. Anyone else agree? OTL
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by amuatama on Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:20 pm

Why would you think you can't have sex before marriage?
Never got that anyway tbh I don't think you find any Virgins here xD
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Elloa on Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:21 pm

RosehPerson wrote:On another note: I think masturbation is necessary to stay pure until marriage. Anyone else agree? OTL

I've a very long answer, but no time atm to start a debate that highly interest me! Stay tuned ...I'll come back soon with a waaaaaaaalllll of text! Very Happy pewpew

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:40 pm

amuatama wrote:Why would you think you can't have sex before marriage?
Never got that anyway tbh I don't think you find any Virgins here xD

I figured that XD All the middle-aged people. I just wanted to know what you guys thought (older people; more wisdom)

If you wait to have sex when you're married, it's all the more special, no? And it allows you to completely 'bond' with your husband/wife. Not to mention you look forward to it and, hopefully, with that special person ;D

Elloa wrote:
RosehPerson wrote:On another note: I think masturbation is necessary to stay pure until marriage. Anyone else agree? OTL

I've a very long answer, but no time atm to start a debate that highly interest me! Stay tuned ...I'll come back soon with a waaaaaaaalllll of text! Very Happy pewpew

I can't wait haha Very Happy
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Acharial on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:15 pm

haha long answer coming for me too but kida busy playing lol with friends atm, will answer soon :3
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Karneelya on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:09 pm

No sex before marriage? Honey, if I'm gonna buy a car, I need to do a test drive Wink
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Elloa on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:20 pm

"Don't try to climb the mountain unprepared"

The image is the pilgrim that try to climb a mountain too high for him. If he had been prepared well, he will maybe be able to reach the top. But if he hasn't be prepared, he risk to fall on the side, in the ravin, and broke his legs. His travel to the top will be compromised.
The top of the Montain represent Wisdom. The ravin represent sin or madness. The path to the top represent the efforts we have to accomplish.
That's what your statement inspire me. Often Religions, and Morale is demanding to humans behaviour that they can't follow, simply because we are unperfection. To have too high expectations will drive someone to do mistake and will refrain his progress, or completly discourage him.
To demand, for example, to someone to not have sex - as it's part of our deeper instincts - without offer in compensation a proper teaching, a real preparation, a deep wisdom to help him/her to accomplish this or an inadequate or uncomplete teaching, then it's risking that this person will fall : sin, frustration, anger, lack of selfesteem, depression etc... Hence what happen with lot of priest and monk from all religions. They can't have "normal" sex, are unable to respect their vows, and fall into sins. If they were correctly prepared for their vows, they would have no difficulties at all to respect it, because they would not need it anymore. They would be beyond it.


So yes, I think that masturbation is certainly very natural and a wished behaviour. Unless you have already reach the top of the montain, and be freed from instinct and any materials needs, it can be salvaging. Releasing tension, nervosity, or simply 'cause it's fun... It's generaly harmless and personal. And if your purprose is to stay virging till you wed, then it's certainly a good alternative.
Now, it's also said that masturbation is wasting energies (sexual energy is very powerful). This is why, for example, Boudhist monk aren't allowed to masturbate. But in our case of unperfect humans, we are already wasting our energies to sleep, eat, and behave wrongly. So it will not make any difference.


Now concerning no sex before wedding, I understand very well both view (to do it, or not to do it). However it's good to question oneself about the meaning of purity, wedding, and sexuality.
Unfortunately, today, so much message that originaly had a lot of meanings and a real reason have completly lost their original meaning. They had been miss used during centuries or more, and today those teachings are like empty shells.
In my eyes, our world had been desecrated. Everything that was Holy has been lost. Our religions had been corrupted for so long that it's hard to understand the original wisdom behind it.

Why no sex before the marriage? I'll try to answer this (but this is only my own view).
First you have the material reasons that do not matter anymore today : which was beeing assured that the children carried by the wife would be from the husband. Today, it's old fashioned and not needed anymore in our society.

The Sacred reasons of No sex before wedding had been lost for a long time, and only remain the meaningless rules badly explained by priest/iman and other spiritual leaders. Often it has also been used to dominate womans.
However the Sacred reasons existed before and its very simple : to reserve yourself for your soulmate (or twinsoul if you lucky enough to find it). And why this simple reasons had desepeared? Because Marriage had been desecrated so long ago that we hardly remember the real meaning of it. By beeing used to arrange union between families, assure the survival of the legacy, or by wed for romance,or any reason you can see that's not the right ones, Wedding have lost its true and holy meaning.
I believe that a wedding is something very sacred and holy and that might not happen to everyone. It's a spiritual union of two persons that share a very deep and absolute love (twin souls), and engage themselves to walk "the path of the mountain" together. Woman and Man have each their own role to perform to allow the other to grow, and improve, advance on his own spiritual path. I'm not speaking about normal love here. A normal romance is not strong enough to balance the burden than a couple may know, wich explain why so many divorce today, and why before, as divorce was forbidden, so many were unhappy in marriage (leading to a lot of frustration and unhappiness)

So..today..is it good to have no sex before wedding? I don't know. Problem is that most likely you will follow the rule without understanding it. Which can lead to unhapiness at some points.
My suggestion, and this is for all subjects : don't just accept what you are been told. Try to understand further. Try to reach the Source. The message of God is there arround us, everywhere. Everyone have the ability to reach it. But this ability is locked. And often morale, religions, teachings lock you even more, making you believing into uncomplete and corrupted old wisdom. So, always think by yourself, always seak the truth, and make your own opinion. If it spread Love, Joy and Truth arround you and for yourself, then you can't be wrong! Smile Whatever it is.

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:33 am

I feel so wise reading that Elloa ;w; Like I understand a bit more? ONWARD TO RESEARCH!
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Majiinfreddy on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:20 pm

Elloa wrote:"Don't try to climb the mountain unprepared"

Too deep.

I think basically if you wait with sex until your marriage, your relationship will have a "deeper meaning". You'll get to know your honey bunny on so many more levels.

But, What Karnee said is basically.. the correct way!

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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Elloa on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:59 pm

I don't disagree with what Karneelya say. But before to discuss about the interest or not interest of staying virgin for your wedding, I'd like to discuss about the wedding itself.

In my opinion, there is no interest about saving your virginity if you wed a random lover that you had been folled to think you would love for ever, but that you will stop to love after three years as it usualy happen (and this because of the feromone stop to work after 3 years).
I don't see the interest either to save your virginity for a husband that your reason have choosen (he is nice, and kind and will keep me safe blablabla).
I don't see the point because those wedding will most likely be a failure anyway, to some degree atleast. Even if you can live relatively happy with those partener, they are not THE RIGHT one. I even don't see the point of marry them at all.

There is only one single person in the world I'd agree to wed, and this person is my TwinSoul. Anyone else, I've refused to get engaged. It's not something to do it lightly, in my eyes. In our society, you don't need to get married to live in couple and have children. So if you choose to marry someone, remember that's vows for life, specialy if you marry at church. You need to be sure about what you are doing. I think that point matter more than sex, or no sex. Don't marry the first love you meet (unless it's really the right one)
There is only one TwinSoul, and I believe one is extremly lucky to find his. For this one and only that one I'd have agreed to save my virginity.
...Problem is that you don't know if you will find him/her, and you might aswell stay virgin all your life if you are waiting for him/her. -___-

Note : I'd also totaly disagree to save my virginity for a guy that's not virgin himself. "You fecked other woman, I'll feck other guy, Ooh yeah! "(that was a joke but yeah, you got my point)


Anyway..in any case, you have only one virginity and to lose it only happen once. This is something very precious and too much teenager too eager to finaly lose it, will live a very mediocre experience.
You have only one first time, and this first time, no matter what you choose - out of wedding, or in the honey moon - the first time should be important, precious and a kind of celebration. And you need to do it with someone that you love and that love you, even if it's a kind of friendship or whatever if it's a kind of love, it's fine. It would sucks if you lose your virginity in the arms of a random guy that you just found attractive at a party and that's just attracted by you.




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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by RosehPerson on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:46 pm

It makes me incredibly sad with all the teenagers just sleeping around because it's 'fun'. But... I don't see the point in it if you don't love the man. I agree, Elloa, that you need to find that special guy ^^ I was close, once, but he changed on me and got depressed (without stopping). I felt pathetic and worthless staying so I broke it off (felt horrible). Dated a douche, and now am dating a rather decent man again. Hopefully he's the one Smile God kinda spoke to me with him.

I wish I could agree with the whole 'test drive' thing, but if you really loved him, wouldn't it even matter? So what if he sucks in bed! You love him! haha

Have you guys found that twin soul yet? Very Happy
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Naiaria on Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:53 pm

I don't think you necessarily have to wait with sex until you get married, but I think it is very important to have your first time with someone you love. Sex isn't something you should give away to just anyone.Smile
I have friends in their 20s that are still virgins and I have friends that sleep around with mostly anyone, I believe the ones that think of sex as something special to be shared with someone you care about generally feel better about themselves.
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Re: Religion/Spirituality discussion - Open mind and respectful

Post by Acharial on Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:58 am

I agree with Wendy on this one, however I share a bit different view on the sex part.

Sex can be practiced for several reasons. You can do it because you just like having sex, or because you want to reach something spiritual, or you don't have it because you want to feel pure. Today the most common reason for having sex is clearly because It's cool during the "teens". The first time is important as Wendy stated and should not be wasted! This is something people miss out.

For me sex is the "Great Rite", used to raise energy, create magical power, or simply find a sense of spiritual communion with a partner. All acts of love and pleasure are rituals. Even masturbation is a valid form of raising energies! (Tantra being one of those). I think these magical powers are missing out on many sex acts these days, for me It's important.

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